Karen Svoboda:
Friends, allies, and Americans, welcome to the Defense of Democracy Podcast where we tell the stories of folks who defend your children's rights by advocating for inclusive public school systems and who fight for diversity across our nation. I'm your host, Karen Svoboda, let's get into it.
Today, it is my pleasure to welcome to the show, Amanda. Amanda is a 23-year-old teacher librarian and grassroots organizer from Louisiana. She's been on the front lines fighting against censorship in libraries. Amanda is the 2021 School Library Journal co-librarian of the year, a 2021 Library Journal Mover & Shaker, and the 2020 Louisiana School Librarian of the Year. Amanda is the 2023 AASL Intellectual Freedom Award winner and recipient of both the 2023 ALA Paul Howard Award for Courage and the 2023 IFRT John Phillip Immroth Award.
She is an interna- international speaker and author of the upcoming book, That Librarian: The Fight Against Book Banning in America. I am welcoming Amanda to the show. Amanda, wow, you have quite a list of accolades that go, that go along with you. How are you doing?
Amanda Jones:
Hi. I'm doing great and thank you for having me.
Karen Svoboda:
So let's talk. You have had quite a journey. Um, you are obviously, uh, passionate about, uh, you know, the right to read, um, so, so tell me about your, your-
Amanda Jones:
Yes. I am very, very, very passionate about the right to read, um, and the right for all students and patrons of public libraries to have access to books that reflect their own journeys and the journeys of everyone in, in libraries both school and public. Um, so I've been a school librarian for 23 years and I, um, recently have come under fire. I say recently, for the past year and a half, I've come under fire, uh, for a speech I gave at the local public library board meeting in my, my own parish of Louisiana.
And, um, since then I have been doxed, harassed, um, you know, targeted by the usual, the usual suspects, Moms for Liberty, Libs of TikTok, Gays Against Gr[--]mers and then, um, my own local hometown keyboard warriors. And, um, really all I did was I went as a resident... I'm a school librarian, but I went as a resident, uh, 45-year resident of my two small town, a small, uh, two red light town public library. And I went and spoke against the right to read for everyone, and then suddenly I've been targeted and harassed. Um, there were memes posted about me that I'm advocating for the teaching of anal s[-]x to 11-year-olds.
Karen Svoboda:
Oh my god.
Amanda Jones:
Oh, yeah. (laughs)
Karen Svoboda:
Woah.
Amanda Jones:
Yeah, they, um, they posted that I am giving p[-]rnography and erotica to six-year-olds and, you know, the usual. (laughs)
Karen Svoboda:
So, yeah. Uh, well, so I know, but I, but I think it's important for our listeners to hear, uh, people... Because people don't realize, you know, that this happens to, you know, our fellow Americans our, our, our, our friends, you know, our, our community members. Um, so you live in, you live in Louisiana. You've been a library, a lover of books and education. Obviously, a lover of kids and they have... Um, now in the show notes sometimes I like to show what, you know, show different things. I mean, maybe you could give me some of, some of the, um, some of the things if it's not too hard that were posted about you so that we can give a sense.
I just want people to know that this is a real thing that happens. So, so if you're listening to this and, you know, whatever you do for a living, if you're an accountant or a teacher, or a doctor like just imagine, you know, going into work and seeing, you know, horrible things said about you and shared within the community. I mean, this is really difficult.
Amanda Jones:
Yeah. It's, and it's, and I can send you links, it's been, um... Uh, NPR has done a lot on it. (laughs) NBC, um, that, you know, I, I'm very small town and I, I, I feel strongly the way I do. I am in the Evangelical South (laughs). Um, and the the irony is I'm an independent and I was raised Southern Baptist and I, um, obviously I have different views now than I did growing up, uh, but I, I believe in human empathy and, you know, anyone who goes and speaks out on behalf of, uh, the LGBTQI plus community or black indigenous people of color in my town they get targeted. Um, I just was not prepared for the extreme targeting that I received. You know, people... I, I received a death threat. Um, they're coming to kill me. (laughs) That's what they said. Um, yeah.
Karen Svoboda:
Wow. How did they call you? Like what was that?
Amanda Jones:
Yeah. It was, um, the subject line was alphabet agenda and it was, uh, you know, they're going to come get my commie p[-]do [-]ss. (laughs) Click, click. You know, the usual.
Karen Svoboda:
Wow.
Amanda Jones:
I say the usual. I guess everybody doesn't receive death threats. Um...
Karen Svoboda:
Well, I have and it is no fun and they sound very much like the ones you have.
Amanda Jones:
Yeah. I even, I still get them. It's been a year and a half since I first spoke out and I got one last week about my mother and, um, yeah, they go on my fa- my relatives social media pages and things like that. And I just gave a very basic censorship speech at the public library and they didn't like that. And so they targeted me and it was shared thousands of times, um, to the point where, um, I was concerned about losing my job. I thought people were going to believe that I was some kind of... You know, people were writing I was a pervert, a p[-]dophile gr[--]mer. I just gave a censorship speech so (laughs) I don't, you know, the jump, they, they don't always make sense.
Karen Svoboda:
And so the death threats and the harassments, um... Uh, so I counsel people, uh, very much to, to, to take those as far as you can take them, as far as litigation and, you know, not just for protecting yourself but because if they lob a verbal death threat like I really believe that there, there is a buildup there and if you try to ignore it, it, it can be, uh, it can just escalate. So tell me what you've been doing to kind of counter some of them.
Amanda Jones:
Well, the first thing I did was I filed three separate police reports, um, one for the death threat and two for the online harassment. And it didn't go anywhere. (laughs) It, it just didn't go anywhere. Um, they're like, "Oh, our hands are tied. We, there's nothing we can do." Um, and so I filed a defamation suit against the main two, two men and it was immediately dismissed at our local court system because, uh, the judge labeled me a public figure.
Karen Svoboda:
Oh, come on. What?
Amanda Jones:
Yeah. I'm just a public school librarian but, um, you know, she said I was a public figure and that it's their opinion that I teach children anal s[-]x and it's their-
Karen Svoboda:
Oh my god.
Amanda Jones:
Oh, yeah.
Karen Svoboda:
I'm sorry.
Amanda Jones:
Oh, yeah. No, like I'm glad someone's outraged besides me. (laughs)
Karen Svoboda:
Oh my god, that is messed up. And, uh, with no proof she's like it's their opinion [inaudible 00:07:31]
Amanda Jones:
It's their opinion and it's their opinion that I give p[-]rnography and erotica to six-year-olds. Uh, that's not even the age of the children at my school. (laughs) But I teach middle school. Um, but she, she said that and she dismissed it and so I, we filed a motion for a retrial for her to rehear it because I can prove all... Defamation cases are really hard to prove, um, but even as labeled a public figure, I can pro- I can provide, um, evidence to document all four facets of defamation. You know, the injury, the malice. I can prove all of that. She wouldn't even hear it, wouldn't even hear it.
And, um, you know, it's, it's, it's unjust and so I filed an appeal with the First Circuit Court of Appeals in Louisiana. And so they, the court system heard my appeal on September 19th I believe it was and we are still waiting for the verdict. We have not heard... We're just still waiting. Um, and I, I'm going the full distance with this, um, so if it's, doesn't go my way I'll appeal to Louisiana Supreme Court. But the, the thing is though because they, they filed what's called a SLAPP suit and said that I was a public figure and that I was trying to stifle their freedom of speech, um, I have to pay their court costs if I continue to lose.
Karen Svoboda:
So wait, explain to me what a what a SLAPP case is.
Amanda Jones:
So usually it's done... So a SLAPP suit... And I don't even understand it fully but usually it's something that you file against politicians or newspapers and you are... It's a way to get a case dismissed saying that, um, you know, "I'm a public figure and they have the right to say these things." And, um, I don't fully understand it. It...
Karen Svoboda:
And, and what I do understand about that argument is that, you know, if you are, say, an actual public figure, right? A celebrity or, you know, um, an elected official, right? Like you've made a choice to be in the public eye and, and therefore you don't have the same safety, uh, you know, around you as like an average person who just is, you know, living their life. You don't have, have the protections, I guess.
Amanda Jones:
Yes.
Karen Svoboda:
So what they're doing by saying you're an a, a, a celeb- What was it? A, a, a public official.
Amanda Jones:
Public figure is what they said.
Karen Svoboda:
A public figure is that, you know, so they, they are effectively pulling away all the protections that a, a normal regular just individual would have, um, which seems absurd to me. And so you've escalated, you've escalated it, and you're waiting and you, you said that was September we're now in late December. There's been no word at all.
Amanda Jones:
No word at all and every time I file an appeal or things like that, the amount of money that I owe my defamers goes up by tens of thousands. (laughs) So, but I'm, you know, I'm not a public figure. I went, I lived in, I've lived in my town for 45 years. I went as a resident of my community and spoke at a public library board meeting, so did 30 other people spoke the same thing I said. Um, they weren't targeted, which I'm glad they weren't. Um, but they weren't targeted, but it's, they're stif- they're stifling my free speech. They're, they're trying to intimidate me.
And what happened was that they tried to silence me by this public smear campaign, but they didn't realize they messed with the wrong one because I'm not gonna be (laughs) I'm not gonna be silent. So, you know, I, um, I formed the Livingston Parish Library Alliance, uh, which is a citizens foundation... Uh, or not foundation but a citizens organization to combat censorship in our public library system. And because they didn't stop at that one meeting. They've kept on. Every two months, we have a library board meeting and they try some new tactic. They've tried to replace our board. They've tried... They've had legislation. They've...
And we fought them every bit, step of the way and we've won every step of the way. Um, we have not banned any books. Uh, we have not, um, succumbed... Our board has not succumbed to any of the, the ridiculousness. And, um, so they're mad at me for not backing down and that's too bad for them. And, um, (laughs) I also... I mean, it doesn't make it easier for me. Uh, I mean I... When I say I'm targeted, I can't even go to my child's high school games, sit in the bleachers and watch her play in the band without people pointing at me, calling me a pervert, a p[-]dophile. These are people I grew up with.
Karen Svoboda:
And so that's what, that's what's so shocking to me is that people know you and they're willing to put everything they know aside and, and mark you as this, you know, pretty much the worst thing that you can, you can label [inaudible 00:12:24]
Amanda Jones:
Yeah, and I... It took... Um, I had to take a medical leave of absence from work from all the pressure. I've been ve- very disappointed with the people, a lot of people that I grew up with, um, friends of mine. And it's very disheartening when you, you know... I had quiet support but nobody was being very public about it. Um, even some of our, our local school board who two years ago, um, honored me at the school board and said I was one of the best things that ever happened to our community. They were silent. They refused to speak out for me.
Karen Svoboda:
I know. I was... I'm reading all of these awards you've received and all of this recognition and, you know, there are libraries around the country that would kill for someone like you.
Amanda Jones:
I mean, I've gotten our school over $100,000 in grants, um, you know, I just... It was silent. Um, and so I got really, really angry and I'm very vocal about the need for therapy and, you know, because it's, it's, it's a lot. Um, and then I decided to just write a book about it and, um, so I wrote a book and I named names. And I'd tell all in.
Karen Svoboda:
Did you? So, so before we get into that, I want to go very quickly into the part of the show where I do a volunteer shout-out. So I'm going to say a real quick, uh, message to a very special volunteer. Today's volunteer shout-out goes to our volunteers in Washington state who heard about the middle schoolers in Seattle who sent handwritten pride cards to Moms for Liberty headquarters. Our volunteers are working to put together a care package for the teacher who coordinated that effort. Thank you.
Okay and we're back. So, Amanda, let's talk about your book, The Fight Against Book Banning in America. That's a pretty lofty title. So tell me what, what's in it.
Amanda Jones:
Yeah, I never thought I'd write a book and it all became... It was like... I don't know if you're familiar with the foundation, We Need Diverse Books?
Karen Svoboda:
No, but they sound wonderful.
Amanda Jones:
They're, they're very great. It was founded by an author named Ellen Oh. And she, um, they had an auction where you could bid on different things like, um, book, autographed books. And of the auction items was a 30 minutes with a literary agent and as a librarian that intrigued me because I am, I, you know, purchased the books and, but I didn't know the other side of it. So I purchased, I won the auction and I, um, talked to the agent. I was asking her how the publishing industry works and then like eight hours later I got an email and they asked to sign me and wanted me to write a book. (laughs)
Karen Svoboda:
That's amazing.
Amanda Jones:
And that like never happens. So I, I'm very... I, I'm very privileged in how that happened. And then so I was like, "Well, I don't really know if I want to write a book, but I'll sign with you, okay." And then two days later, um, Anton Mueller who is the senior editor at Bloomsbury said he heard me on the New York Times podcast and he's like, "Hey, have you ever thought about writing a book?" (laughs)
Karen Svoboda:
Oh my god.
Amanda Jones:
I was like, "Well, I do have a lot to say."
Karen Svoboda:
(laughs)
Amanda Jones:
So it just snowballed from there. And so now I have a book and while I was on medical leave. I just, I wrote out all of my feelings. And so it's kind of, it goes, it starts out with my death threat. That's the opening of the book and it goes all about from the meeting, that the original meeting to my harassment to how I've tried to turn, um, lemons into lemonade and I've created, um, a found- an organization in my own town. I join forces with some other people in Louisiana to help, um, found Louisiana Citizens Against Censorship. And so we, we've spoken at the legislature. We have, um, we tried to build, um, a coalition with all the other alliances that are in our state that are facing this in their parishes in Louisiana.
And, um, I decided I wasn't going to take it sitting down and I wanted to write the process. And I talked about coalition building is huge and I, um, I talk about... Because I was like my one wheel... and I use this analogy I was like one wheel just spinning. And they realized there's a whole other group out, a whole other groups out there like Louisiana Trans Advocates and forum for equality, and Planned Parenthood and 10,000 women of Louisiana.
And we all want the same things which is love, acceptance, basic human rights. And so they taught me how... They, they they, you know... I tell everyone the people that are hated on the most in our state, the historically marginalized took me under their wing and did more for me than my church ever did-
Karen Svoboda:
Wow.
Amanda Jones:
... (laughs) for me. And, um, they taught me how to become an activist and speak out a little more.
Karen Svoboda:
That's cute. Yeah.
Amanda Jones:
So that's what the book is about. It, it talks about my story, but then coalition building, but then also, um, the greater, what's happening in Louisiana and the book banning across the United States and the target and harassment of not only librarians but the reason that librarians are being targeted is essentially because of historically marginalized groups and the people that we choose to stand up for.
Karen Svoboda:
Yes, yes. And it's, I mean, it's a very lonely, um, spot to be in if, if you're in a community like the one you're in. I, I have no doubt in my mind that there are more people there who feel like you do, but it sounds like, you know, they're, they're not able or willing to, to put themselves on the line like that. Um, so that, that's a huge, um, sacrifice that you're making right there.
Amanda Jones:
I just, I don't know. (laughs) I just think that when you, uh, and I... So I have a platform, you know, like winning national school librarian the year in 2021 gave me a platform and I think that if you have a platform and you don't do anything with it, it's a waste, you know. And I... People make fun of me in my town for what I'm about to say but I'm a white straight woman and, and I, there is privilege in that. And I think that people that have privileges should use their privilege for good. And in fact, um, you can't see it because this is audio, but I have a tattoo on my wrist that I just recently got... It's a P cubed because, um, at the national, uh, school librarian conference in October author Samira Ahmed said that we should use our power and privilege for purpose. So I got P cubed.
Karen Svoboda:
Oh, I love that. Right.
Amanda Jones:
Yeah. Use your power and privilege for purpose and I think if you're afforded privileges. I, I have a very supportive family. I do have a supportive administration at my job and I have a platform. And I mean, yeah, it sucks to be the target of people. You know, it's horrible, but like, but if people like me don't speak out, it shouldn't be up to people that historically are marginalized. They're tired. Like they're tired of it. Like it's not-
Karen Svoboda:
I have this conversation all the time. Yeah.
Amanda Jones:
It's fair and until everyone else speaks up, there's not gonna be any change. So, and I don't think that makes me courageous or brave because that's what people tell me, "Oh, you're..." No, I just think it means I'm a decent human being. (laughs) So...
Karen Svoboda:
And you're... Right. And you are courageous and brave and, you know what, and you're giving courage to others too. You know, I'm hoping that acts, uh, like what you're taking will inspire other members of the community to stand up. And it, it, it can happen. Um, you know, certainly staying silent isn't helping anybody.
Amanda Jones:
No. And I will say the tides are turning in our community. Um, we we had a major vote recently. Our public library had a millage, a tax millage and if the millage had failed our public libraries would have closed by 2026. And we won by 168 votes.
Karen Svoboda:
Whoa, wow.
Amanda Jones:
Yep. So now we are funded through 2035, so we don't have to worry about funding. But it came down to a lot of speaking out and a lot of coalition building and work.
Karen Svoboda:
And a lot... people don't understand how much work goes into something like that because there's nobody who's going to come down out of the sky and like help you, right? You are going to have to mobilize yourselves and save that library yourselves because it's not gonna happen on its own.
Amanda Jones:
No, and it's very... It's all consuming and it weighs heavily on you and it's, it's like, it's... For a while, for about a year it's all I thought about 24/7 and, um, I'm at the point now... Our library is safe for the next 10 years years so I'm, you know, and I've come to the realization that it doesn't matter if I win in court or not because I've already won. I mean, I, I found the [inaudible 00:21:08] Yeah, I've already won and every time I lose in court, they get online and they mock me, and they make fun of me and... But what they don't understand is that I won the minute I filed the suit. I stood up for myself.
Karen Svoboda:
Yes.
Amanda Jones:
And I have a daughter. My daughter is 16. She's about to be 17 and, um, and, and, and then also not just as a parent, but as a teacher I teach children to speak out and say something when they're being bullied and if I hadn't done that, I wouldn't be practicing what I preach, so...
Karen Svoboda:
Absolutely. So tell me, um, the people who are targeting you are they part of a group or is it just like random people in the community?
Amanda Jones:
Both. So there's, there's two entities that I'm, that are in the lawsuit. So one I'll start with the local yokel. He's this, he's just this guy that has a keyboard and he just wants to feel important about himself. And I don't know, and I don't know any these people. Like I've never met them. I don't, I've never interacted with them online and he just, I don't know, he singled it on me. He still posts about me. It's been a year and a half. It's a little obsessive and it's, it's concerning.
Karen Svoboda:
That is scary, yeah.
Amanda Jones:
Yeah. It's, it's, it's just. I don't know why he's just obsessed with me but, um, I should say allegedly obsessed with me. (laughs) But he, um, he, he just posts nonstop. Like he... I don't know. And it's, and he equates it to, um, he's like God's warrior and I'm-
Karen Svoboda:
Oh, I'm sorry.
Amanda Jones:
One of that.
Karen Svoboda:
I should know that. I don't know why that surprised me. [inaudible 00:22:32]
Amanda Jones:
Yeah. I'm Goliath and he's David. And he's trying to protect the children. And he's convinced everyone in our community that our lawsuit is actually about, I'm trying to put p[-]rn in the kids section and he is the parent that's standing up for the children. But the irony is he's never spoken at... He's never stood up and spoken at any of these meetings that I'm at. He just sits there sullen and then he goes home and gets on his keyboard and rants. He's a coward. Um, he's just a coward but I, I do, I am concerned about his obsessiveness. Um, but he's just this local guy.
However another entity is, um, a group called... I don't even want, I don't want to say their name because I don't want to give them publicity. But they're, they're a local extremist group, um, in our state that targets other libraries. They've targeted other parish libraries and their leader is a guy, he gets online and he makes fun of trans people. And he makes, you know, he says stuff like the jab and like (laughs) he probably uses horse dewormer for (laughs) I don't know.
He's not the brightest ball but, um, but the, the scary thing is he's the director of a nonprofit who they're dark money, dark, uh, nonprofit group and they have a lot of politicians believing what they're saying and follow them.
Karen Svoboda:
I'm gonna to stop you because I know you said you don't want to give them air time and I will respect that if, if you really don't. But I mean like, I'm very curious because we deal with a lot of different groups and I'm... Part of what we do is try to like let people know, you know, it's not all Moms for Liberty. It's not all the...
Amanda Jones:
I'll tell you.
Karen Svoboda:
Okay. (laughs)
Amanda Jones:
I'll tell you.
Karen Svoboda:
Who is it?
Amanda Jones:
So they are called Citizens for a New Louisiana and they work hand-in-hand behind the scenes with like, you know, the Louisiana Freedom Caucus and, um, they've, they've worked with Mass Resistance before. They work with, um, there's a hate group that they invite to library board meetings, I think it's called, um, Tradition Family Property or TFP or something. And, um, you know, they're very proud. They, they, they feed stuff to Gays Against Gr[--]mers about me. I mean, I can't prove that but I mean it's, they feed stuff-
Karen Svoboda:
I'm like on your website now and just [inaudible 00:24:45]
Amanda Jones:
Oh, yeah. It's, it's, it's... They're crazy trains. But they they also feed stuff. There's a, there's a guy in, in New Jersey named Dan Kleinman that targets school librarians all the time. They tag him like, you know, they... But the, the thing is they promote politicians and the politicians lean into that. And my local, my local representative who by the way gave me a commendation from the House of Representatives in 2021. She jumped on the bandwagon and she had some legislation in our system. But she, she's posted, um... When I lost my, when my court case was dismissed, she posted on her social media that it was a win for freedom of speech and we have work to do. And I'm just like, "Lady..." (laughs)
Karen Svoboda:
Yeah, yeah.
Amanda Jones:
If she bothered to read the lawsuit she'd see it's a defamation case and I'm pretty sure she probably has read the lawsuit and, you know, there's a lot [inaudible 00:25:47] have to about her. Oh, I'm sorry.
Karen Svoboda:
No, I was gonna say it's it's what they put in the header that, you know, that it's this whole twisting of fact that we see all the time.
Amanda Jones:
And I have a lot more I say about her in my book. And, and I have receipts.
Karen Svoboda:
Yeah?
Amanda Jones:
Because, you know, when a book is published particularly a book... My book's being published by Bloomsbury and, you know, it had to go through legal, so I had to to have my receipts.
Karen Svoboda:
So when is your book coming out?
Amanda Jones:
August 27th 2024
Karen Svoboda:
All right, all right. So that'll be interesting. I cannot wait to read that. Um, gosh I'm trying to think. How does... So you have a 16-year-old. How do you, how does this affect them? How do you as a mom, uh, deal with this?
Amanda Jones:
Well, when I was first targeted, um, I locked myself in my room for two days and I cried so much that like my eyes swelled shut and I couldn't breathe. And, um, my husband and I we just told her I was sick and like I really protected her. But at some point... She's, she's on social media. So we had to sit her down and show her these awful memes and things that people are saying about me. We had to show her the death threat because somebody was going to show it to her anyway.
Same with my 97-year-old grandmother. I had to sit her down and show her and, um, you know, these people that say they want to protect children sure didn't worry about my child, um, but, um, she took it in stride and she's like, "Mom, nobody is gonna believe that." And I don't let her know that people do believe it in my community and, um, I've, I've overheard conversations with her. Um, she's, she has a good group of friends like, um, about a year ago they, somebody, a teacher at her school was dead naming, uh, a student and there was a position, a petition started. And her friends got her to ask me for help because she has been telling them, "My mom is a fighter."
Karen Svoboda:
Oh, oh.
Amanda Jones:
So, so...
Karen Svoboda:
That's good.
Amanda Jones:
And her friend said, "Your mom is a badass." So, you know (laughs) at the end of the day all I care about is what my own child thinks of me. And I, and the way I raise my child to speak out. And so I'm, I'm happy with the way she is turning out.
Karen Svoboda:
It sounds like she's wonderful. And it sounds like she has a good network of friends and a good network at home which makes the advocacy of a parent so much easier, you know, if not possible at all, right?
Amanda Jones:
Yeah, I was very... The fir- first thing I thought about was that she was going to be targeted at, at school. She has a very good friend group. And I will say it's the adults that are the problem.
Karen Svoboda:
I know.
Amanda Jones:
(laughs)
Karen Svoboda:
I'm sorry, but let's just say it, it is not the kids. It is the adults.
Amanda Jones:
It's not the kids. It's the adults. And the kids have been overwhelmingly supportive of her. And so I do have hope for the future that, you know, the kids are okay. They're great. And so I hope that they can break this cycle of hate, you know. And I... They, they're growing up in the age of social media and so I actually did a lesson, um, with my students my students are 10 and 11, um, on social media and the number of children that are 10 and 11 that told me they, they've been told to kill themselves...
Karen Svoboda:
Oh my God.
Amanda Jones:
Yes, was shocking. I actually wrote an article about it for School Library Journal that was published last month about how like, you know, people are worried about books, non-existent issues. They have their kids, have phones in the palm of their hands and they're being told awful things every day. And so I hope on the flip side of that if good comes out of it that the kids that are growing up with this, have learned what it feels like and so they will be more... I mean, I don't want them to know what it feels like but that they'll be more empathetic because of it.
Karen Svoboda:
I agree, I agree. And and, you know, I, I, I often say that, you know, if you're really worried about your child in p[-]rnography, you got to take the phone away and you got to take it away from every kid around them, you know, because it's just, you know... Or you can accept the fact and you could talk to your children and you could be open with them and just, you know, what I had said to my kids when I felt it was the time to do it, you know, "You're going to see things on the internet that you can never unsee."
And anytime you have a question about anything, you have to come to me and I will talk to you and it will be no judgment. And that's, to me that's the only answer to dealing with kids and, and the exposure that they have to horrible material. And it is, none of it is in books that I'm worried about.
Amanda Jones:
Yeah, and it's, it's those conversations you have to have with your children, you know? Like you don't hide stuff from them. I mean, you monitor and you, you know, but, but you, you have those conversations with them because they're in the real world. (laughs) You can't hide from it.
Karen Svoboda:
You can't. And, and, and that's the thing. And I'm not saying to promote it in any way, but I'm saying to accept the fact that you can... And I, believe me, my kids didn't have cellphones, we didn't have a TV in our house until they were in middle school. They, I, I was very conscious and worried about social media. But then the day came where they were going to be exposed to it whether I liked it or not because we don't live, you know, in the middle of nowhere.
We live where they have access or their friends have access to these things. So, you know, that's the reality of the situation and doing things like taking books away from them, you know, is, is taking away another option of for, for wholesome and healthy entertainment.
Amanda Jones:
Yeah, and one of the things I don't understand people will say, "Oh, there's p[-]rnography in the children's section." What they mean is there's s[-]xual reproduction books in the teen section and it's not like it's, you know, Hustler. (laughs) It's, it's accurate information and my thought process as, as a parent is I'd rather my child learn accurate information than what they see on the Internet. And let's be honest, kids aren't, they're not going to the library to get p[-]rn. (laughs) And there's not p[-]rn in the library anyway, but, you know... And then but, but you have books like... And they say that... I see, I see the book Gender Queer targeted a lot and, um, that book saves lives, you know. But people will say they want to get out Gender Queer, um, but they don't stop there. They say, they, then they go for Pride Puppy! which is a picture book, you know, and so you're like, "Ah, you're not worried about..." (laughs)
Karen Svoboda:
Exactly. And they come, and it trickles down just like you're saying and then, and then what they end up going and calling p[-]rnography suddenly becomes any book that deals with an LGBTQIA plus character. Right? And then what's your excuse for pulling the history books? Where do you get... What's the reason for that, you know? It's made up.
Amanda Jones:
Exactly. And they...
Karen Svoboda:
It's out of control.
Amanda Jones:
Uh, sometimes we have... I have well-meaning, well-meaning people in my community will say to me, "Well, maybe we should just put the LGBTQ books in their own section." And my counter which I don't know, it's the best counter argument (laughs) but my... And then I, I, I act dumb and I'm like, "Oh, and then maybe they should get their own water fountains and bathrooms too."
Karen Svoboda:
Uh-huh.
Amanda Jones:
And then, oh, I mean... And then they're like, "Oh." I'm like, "Do you see where we're going here? Do you see where we're going? We're going backwards in time."
Karen Svoboda:
[inaudible 00:33:18] down that path.
Amanda Jones:
Like why should... And, and, and my thing is we, why should Pride Puppy! or Gender Queer being in LGBTQ section. Libraries are for everyone. They don't serve a certain population, they serve everyone, you know? And it's, it's a slippery slope. And it's, I tell people what, you know, it's... "Well, if you censor Pride Puppy then are you gonna start the other side?" I say other side. There shouldn't be sides, but I'm saying, "Then people are going to start wanting to censor the Bible and Christian fiction and..." You know?
Karen Svoboda:
Yeah. Right?
Amanda Jones:
It's, you can't... Libraries are for everyone and that means straight white too, gay, people of color, like everybody, everybody.
Karen Svoboda:
Libraries are for everybody. So, Amanda, um, I always like to kind of close the show on a positive note. So you tell me, what's, what's coming down the road for you that you are looking forward to in 2024? Obviously, your book. But (laughs) so anything you want to... Are you going on tour? Are you doing anything like that?
Amanda Jones:
I do. I have... So I go and speak at librarian conferences. So I have several coming up one in Alaska. I've never, I've never been to Alaska so I'm doing that. And then, um, I was interviewed by Oprah Daily so... In fact, Oprah, so Oprah Winfrey herself talked about me at the National Book Awards.
Karen Svoboda:
Wow.
Amanda Jones:
For like a full minute. I'm-
Karen Svoboda:
[inaudible 00:34:45] starstruck right now.
Amanda Jones:
I was like I didn't know. I, I had no clue. People started texted me. They're like, "Oprah is talking about you at the National Book Awards." Like for a solid minute. I was, you know, because as someone growing up who like, that's... I was introduced to like The Color Purple and Dr. Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison from watching Oprah. And so and she, she talked about me and my story for like... You know? So I'm really excited about my Oprah Daily interview that is coming out. Um [inaudible 00:35:15]
Karen Svoboda:
When is that coming out? Do you know?
Amanda Jones:
I don't know. [inaudible 00:35:17] I don't know. It should be-
Karen Svoboda:
Come back. You gotta let us know so we can share it.
Amanda Jones:
I will. I don't know it's coming out. I don't... That and then I'm hoping, um, and then my book, and then maybe I'll go on a book tour. We'll see. (laughs)
Karen Svoboda:
Woo. Well, Amanda, I, I really love having you on the show. I, I, I want to wish you the best of luck. I, I do see you as a warrior. I do see you as a winner. Uh, you clearly are not about to give up on this journey and I think the kids in your community are so fortunate to have you. And the other parents like you on their side. So thank you so much for joining us today.
Amanda Jones:
Thank you for having me. I'm a huge fan of your work. I watch your TikToks. I follow you on Twitter. I'm huge fan so thank you for having me.
Karen Svoboda:
Thanks for listening to the Defense of Democracy Podcast. If you like what you've heard, you can find out more at defenseofdemocracy.org. Please consider becoming a support partner by texting the letters, DOFD. That's Defense O-F Democracy to [-----]. Stay strong and remember there is more good than bad out there and you're standing on the right side of history.
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See also transcript and associated recording here:
Further, I have previously written about Amanda Jones here:
