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Liz Owen (00:00):
Hello everyone, welcome to Something to Talk About Live. My name is Liz
Owen. My pronouns are she and her, and I'm the director of
communications for PFLAG National. It is really, really great to have
you with us. Uh, I don't wanna waste any time because this is such an
important and timely conversation. I'm gonna turn it right over to my
friend and colleague, Jean-Marie Navetta.
Jean-Marie Navetta (00:22):
Hey Liz, how's it going?
Liz Owen (00:23):
I'm good. How are you?
Jean-Marie Navetta (00:25):
I'm so excited about this conversation, I can hardly sit still.
Liz Owen (00:28):
I'm gonna get the heck outta here.
Jean-Marie Navetta (00:30):
Yes, so I can dig it all jiggly around here and get very excited and
talk about banned books. So thank you, Liz. We'll talk to you later.
Liz Owen (00:36):
You bet.
Jean-Marie Navetta (00:38):
Hey everybody. My name is Jean-Marie Navetta. I'm the director of
learning and inclusion at PFLAG National. My pronouns are she and ella.
Um, and every single week we get together to talk about something
related to LGBTQ inclusion, and so this is a very interesting show. Um,
you know, a few weeks ago, um, my colleague Greg Rokisky, who is our
social media guru, um, came to me and said, "I have this idea. There's
this whole thing with these books being banned and I think we should
talk about it." And he started to construct the list and construct what
this could look like. And I'm so excited that this is really happening.
Jean-Marie Navetta (01:11):
Um, so for those of you who like to read the article and the questions,
um, and read along, you can go to
straightforequality.org/discussionseries. And that is where you will
find this week- weeks article which is entitled, "Librarians Are
Resisting Censorship of Children's Books by LGBTQ+ and Black Authors." And that appeared in "The 19th" and it was written by Nadra Nittle. Um,
so to have this conversation, we have three absolutely incredible
guests. Um, we have first, um, Deborah Caldwell-Stone, who is the
director of the American Library Association's Office for Intellectual
Freedom. We have Maia Kobabe, who is the author of "Gender Queer: A Memoir," and we have Malinda Lo, the author of "Last Night at the Telegraph Club," which was just named one of the National Book Award
winners for, uh, Young People's Literature. So welcome everybody. And
thank you for being here.
Maia Kobabe (02:04):
Hello.
Malinda Lo (02:04):
Hello.
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (02:05):
Hello everyone. Thanks for having me.
Jean-Marie Navetta (02:07):
Oh, thank you so much for being here and for joining us for this really,
really important conversation. So I wanna get right into the content.
Um, so for those of you who haven't read the article yet, it is a pretty
shocking piece when you actually get into some of the numbers and the
ways this effort is actually showing up. So, Deborah, I was wondering if
we could start with you. So one of the interesting things, and by
interesting, I mean kind of horrifying things, um, but I saw in the
article was that the ALLA, ALA had reported that between, uh, if we
looked at September 2020 and September 2021, um, the reports of attempts
to ban books had gone up about 60%, which is kind of an outrageous
number for one year. So what's happening out there, and what do you
think is behind the sudden urgency for this effort? We know this isn't a
new effort, but it does seem to be ramping up.
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (02:57):
No, I think we're seeing, um, the results of a fairly loosely, uh, I'll
be fair, it's loosely organized campaign among a number of advocacy
groups, uh, to impose a kind of, uh, orthodoxy on what's available to
young people in school libraries and public libraries. Um, we're seeing
groups like MassResistance, the anti-LGBTQ group, get involved with
challenges. Um, we're seeing, uh, Heritage Action, which is part of
Heritage Foundation, Parents Defending Education, Moms for Liberty, and
they're all targeting specific books. Um, they're target, you know, it
seems like the main target for their ire are books that deal with the
experiences of LGBTQIA persons, um, or that are meant for families led
by same sex couples or things like that.
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (03:48):
Um, what's really insidious about their, uh, efforts is that their
effort to frame any materials dealing with gay, queer, transgender
persons as inherently obscene for minors. And when I say minors, they're
talking about anyone under the age of 18, so that there's no
accommodation for adolescents, young adults preparing for adulthood at
all. And some of their rhetoric makes it sound like books that are
intended for high schoolers are in the hands of five year olds. Um, and
the that's been remarkably effective as well. So we're seeing elected
officials join the bandwagon. Uh, the governors of Texas and South
Carolina have both promised to erase quote pornographic materials
unquote from school libraries and public libraries. Um, we're seeing the
pa, uh, proposal of legislation that would make it possible for, uh,
librarians and educators to be criminally charged for providing
materials to young people that parents don't approve of.
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (04:50):
Um, and we're seeing, uh, really this rhetoric, this framing around
these issues, that's being really destructive. We're seeing equal
efforts as well, targeting, uh, materials, dealing with racism, the
black American experience, black history, it seems to be a twin campaign
that feeds off of each other, both, uh, LGBTQ materials and materials
that they're targeting under that, you know, false rubric of Critical Race Theory. Um, and, and we, we sometimes see challenges, uh, brought
by one group to both sets of materials at one time at school board
meetings.
Jean-Marie Navetta (05:27):
Yeah, it is. It's been very intense. Um, and, and, and you just keep
seeing more and more in the headlines. Um, you mentioned something about
the age of, of readers and how this is being portrayed. Um, Malinda,
your book is recommended for readers, um, grades nine and up, so it's
hardly a children's book. Um, could the level of resistance to your book
actually surprise you given who it was written for?
Malinda Lo (05:53):
Um, well, you know, I think the resistance has only really popped up
this fall. So "Telegraph Club," um, came out in January and it's done
really well over the past year. Like it's, it's sold really well, it's
garnered a lot of, um, awards and I mean, and critical acclaim. It won
the National Book Award. I mean, I think that the reason it got on these
lists is because it's been doing pretty well. Um, I, I think that the,
the thing to remember is that, um, you know, book challenges are kind of
random in the past, like it's not clear why certain books are
challenged. It's not clear that people actually have read the books that
are being challenged. And oftentimes, yes, I can see you all nodding.
(laughs)
Malinda Lo (06:36):
I can, you know, know, oftentimes the ones that are challenged are the
best sellers, because those are the ones that people are aware of. Um,
so, so far, uh, these challenges have not affected "Last Night at the
Telegraph Club" at all, as far as I can tell, but there is the issue
that, um, overt book banning is not the only way it can cause harm. I
mean, the... This, they have this chilling effect on-
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (07:02):
Absolutely.
Malinda Lo (07:02):
... teachers and librarians that can lead them to self censor and not
acquire books at all out of fear that they will be challenged. And, you
know, people have their jobs on the line and I can understand why they
would do this, but it's a very... It's just a hard problem, you know,
because we can't fight...
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (07:20):
Absolutely.
Malinda Lo (07:20):
... We can't resist what we don't know about.
Jean-Marie Navetta (07:22):
Exactly.
Malinda Lo (07:22):
So if they're not even buying the books, what, what can we do?
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (07:25):
Yeah. And, and that's really the intent behind some of these efforts is,
you know, we actually saw library staff charged with pandering
obscenity to minors, um, in Wyoming. And now the prosecutor,
fortunately, dismissed those charges, didn't, uh, act on them. But, you
know, if you're an educator, if you're a librarian and you know that
this is going on, you know, and especially in rural communities, small
towns, and things like that, it's really easy to decide that you want to
avoid the controversy and not acquire the book at all. And that's a
real shame because we know that in those communities, that there's
always young people who want or need the information, want to know about
these experiences, or exploring their own gender identity, sexual
identity issues, and they really need to be able to reach out and see
themselves reflected in library collections. And when that doesn't
happen, it, it just, impoverishes their whole experience, educational
experience, their whole, whole life, and really defeats the whole
purpose of what libraries are all about.
Jean-Marie Navetta (08:30):
It, it's true. You know, it was interesting, um, getting ready for
today's show, I read both of the books. Couldn't put either one of them
down. (laughs) If you haven't read these books, you absolutely should
make it a, your business to start reading them there, just so good. And
interestingly enough, um, Maia, I read about your book before I actually
read your book. And so I went into it sort of wondering what was I
going to see compared to what article says, and when I got to some of
those places, it... When you read the context, when you read the whole
thing, I, I literally could not figure out what was going on. So, um,
you wrote a great, uh, well wrote and drew, um, a great "Washington
Post," um, editorial about, um, the response to "Gender Queer," which is
just so amazing. What did it feel like to know that your personal story
has suddenly made you this kind of lightning rod, um, for other
people's resistance?
Maia Kobabe (09:21):
Yeah, it was very strange. Um, I, my book has been out for even longer
than Malinda's. It actually came out in 2019. It's been out for two and a
half years at this point. And when it first came out, I did brace
myself for some resistance. I know that it's really common for queer
stories to receive push back online. So I kind of like braced myself a
little bit for that. But when it didn't come in the first two years, I
thought this is probably fine, it's... I'm safe now. Um, and then I
really feel like what's happened is that this book, my book, Malinda's
book, and a lot of other books have just been caught up in what really
feels like a viral social media moment. And I absolutely do think that
the majority of the people challenging the books have not read them.
Maia Kobabe (10:00):
So for me, I'm really not taking it as a judgment on my work or on my
book, I'm really taking it as like my book is, uh, particularly
vulnerable because it is illustrated, so it's really easy to flip it
open and grab the singular, um, visual images that people disagree with
out of context and really easy to like, get them viral online, maybe
easier than it would be like a, a paragraph of like written text. Um, so
huh I mean, it's, I- I'm not happy about it obviously. It's been, it's
been a very distracting and kind of upsetting time. Um, but on the other
hand, like Malinda said, it's like, it hasn't hurt the book at all. The
sales are up, it's doing great. Many people have reached out to me in
the past couple of weeks to say, "I saw your book was banned and
therefore I decided to read it and I really enjoyed it," which is like a
weird little silver lining.
Maia Kobabe (10:48):
And really what I'm coming to see is these book bans don't really hurt
the book or the author, what they hurt is the communities. It's, it's
like, I'm when I'm seeing it as is a community attacking itself. And
like Deborah said, impoverishing itself.
Jean-Marie Navetta (11:01):
Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I couldn't help as I read both of your books,
thinking about, uh, as I've joked a million years ago, being in high
school, there were no books like yours (laughs) on the shelves. And I
always go back, you know, I, I have these moments where I go back and I
think 15, 16 year old me, how would it have been different now? And I
think these would've... These kind of books would've been lifelines. Um,
Deborah, you know, this whole idea of what appears in schools, what
youth have access to, the role that their parents have in controlling
this has certainly become very much of a political tool. In fact, a lot
of people have put, have pointed to Glenn Youngkin's campaign in
Virginia, which, one of his commercials actually featured, uh, a student
reading, uh, Toni Morrison book, um, as one of the reasons that he was
successful there that this, this whole theme, this drum that is being
beat, um, is, succee-, you know, is why he won. Do you think we're gonna
see more of that, um, in the future as we head towards another round of
elections?
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (11:57):
Absolutely. I think that, um, I, I, I would actually argue that it
wasn't one of the, um, primary reasons why Youngkin won his election,
but I think that what, the lesson they took from that it's a way of
activating, um, suburban women, that trended toward voting for Biden in
the presidential election, and to draw them in, and to create
controversy around that, um, and, and activate the that particular set
of voters. And so we're seeing these groups, Moms for Liberty, um, or
Parents Defending Education, they're doing anything, but, but they're
out there, they're recruiting, they're organizing, um, uh, campaigns.
We're actually seeing efforts to target and recall school board members
who vote to support intellectual freedom, to support access to these
materials. Um, and so I think it's going to be a real factor in
elections.
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (12:56):
And you can look at the, um, actions of the one state rep in Texas [NOTE: Matt Krause] who
created that list of 800 and fif- 849 bad books. Um, and it's drawing
him attention and otherwise he would be a nobody in the race for Attorney General in Texas. It it's got that, did exactly what he wanted,
which was to elevate his profile and get him attention. And he didn't
really ask for anything to happen with these books, he just asked, "Do
you have these books in your library?" And the sad thing is, is we're
now hearing from school districts in, um, in Texas, that there are a
number of 'em using that list to identify and pull books simply because
they appeared on his list without anything more.
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (13:42):
And it it's in of course the majority of the books were either LGBTQIA
themed, or dealing with, uh, race or racism. Uh, so, you know, it's, uh,
you know, I think that we'll certainly see it, and we're certainly
already seeing discussions of state legislatures. We know that there
will be a bill pending in Georgia, a bill's already been introduced in
Florida, uh, all aimed at providing tools for censorship, uh, aimed at
what are called diverse materials, diverse topics in schools and
libraries.
Jean-Marie Navetta (14:15):
Yeah. It's, it's definitely on the move. Malinda, you da, your book wh,
it, it, wasn't just about, um, uh, a, you know, LGBTQ characters or
anything, it had a lot of themes. It was coming of age, it was about
race, it was about sexual orientation, it was about expression, it, it
all came into play. Um, do you think it was this combination that led to
so much ire? Because I have to admit as I read it, I thought I really
have a hard time putting my finger on any one thing that I would call
problematic. (laughs) I mean, it was so many different themes that we
need people to, to learn, uh, to learn about. So do you think it was the
combination, or do you think there was one thing that really attracted
attention?
Malinda Lo (14:54):
Uh, well, first of all, I wanna, I wanna note that I have not faced
anywhere near the amount of, uh, book challenges and resistance as Maia
has with "Gender Queer." Like my books have always kind of floated under
the radar, I think maybe because they're novels about queer girls and
that doesn't seem as, as threatening as novels about trans and gender
queer people. Um, it's, it's an interesting situation, um, to find my
books in now, because as Deborah mentioned, that list of 850 books
includes, uh, my first novel "Ash," which was published in 2009.
Maia Kobabe (15:30):
Oh my gosh.
Malinda Lo (15:30):
I mean, that book has been out for so long. Uh, it's a lesbian retelling
of "Cinderella" that has, I don't know. I mean, they could... That
actually was attempted, somebody did try to challenge that when it first
came out, but that it didn't work. Um, so I, I think that, again, the
problem is they're not really reading these books-
Maia Kobabe (15:50):
No.
Malinda Lo (15:50):
... in the ways that readers read them. You know what I mean? Like I
follow this, um, researcher on Twitter, Richard Price, and he's been
getting some of the complaints from the school districts where these
books are being challenged, including one school district where "Last
Night of the Telegraph Club" is on their list of pending books to
discuss. They've already removed Maia's book from their school district
there. Um, but so Richard Price received these complaints and they say
nothing on them when they ask, why are you challenging this book? It
just says parental complaint, that's it?
Maia Kobabe (16:21):
Yeah.
Malinda Lo (16:21):
There's no detail. So I'm really not convinced that, uh, they know why
they're challenging these books. (laughs)
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (16:28):
I can confirm that because we, uh, we solicit reports from educators and
librarians across the country, which goes into our most challenged book
lists. And we're getting reports particularly about "Gender Queer"
that, um, repeat the very same language from a social media post.
Maia Kobabe (16:49):
Yeah.
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (16:50):
So we know that they're challenging this based on social media reports
that they're reading or outrage articles in, you know, right wing press,
and they're not actually reading the book. Uh and and you know, it's
not uncommon for that to happen, but this really is... This is, part of
this is fueled by social media and outrage and and deliberate...
Jean-Marie Navetta (17:11):
It is. It definitely is. And it ah, in some ways I'm surprised by what
you just said, and in other ways, I'm, I'm not [inaudible 00:17:16] zero
ways. So Maia, you know, we've been talking about sort of the front
side of this, you know, what the bans look like and what making us
inaccessible can look like. But, um, your book, as you said, it's been
out a little while. Um, we are not talking about the impact that it's
had on the readers. Um, and it's really significant. Could you talk a
little bit about some of the feedback that you've received from readers,
especially the younger ones, um, and, and what that's been like.
Maia Kobabe (17:43):
I've been getting so many messages from readers. I mean, ever since the
beginning, I, when the book first came out, I was getting, uh, multiple
specifically Instagram DMs. Yes, so from likely from young people, like a
week, and a lot of people saying things like, "This is the first time
I've ever seen myself represented in a book," or like, "I had... I've
never heard this described this way," or, "I didn't even have the
language to describe this." And then my favorite type of messages are
when people say, I, like, "I shared this with my parents, and then now
they like understand me better." Or like, "It's opened up conversations
we hadn't been able to have before," or sometimes the reverse and
sometimes like people say, "I'm a non-binary parent and I share this
with my child." And that's like, really, just like so heartwarming and
so lovely.
Maia Kobabe (18:23):
And there has been an uptick of messages again, since like the recent
banning and some of them yes, are people saying, I, I heard about this
because of the ban. And then I think other peoples maybe are seeing it,
yeah, maybe slightly more prominently displayed in a bookstore or
something and, um, and reaching out. Or, or librarians and teachers
saying like, "I have this book in my classroom and I'm gonna make sure
it stays in the classroom and on the shelf." So that's really
heartwarming and heartening.
Jean-Marie Navetta (18:48):
What, what, I I I, you know, opposition is typically not listening to us
and they don't particularly care about what's going on, but what is the
thing that you wish that they could see or hear about books like yours?
'Cause I think they're so riled up in maybe not even reading the book
and just getting to the ban, what are they missing that they're not
listening to?
Maia Kobabe (19:08):
I think that they're missing how like smart young people are, and how
most, especially like teen and middle grade readers, if they come across
this type of material, it's often 'cause they're seeking it out because
they're already questioning these topics because they want to know
things about this. And that includes topics of Critical Race Theory or
civil rights, students rights, and you know, sexual health and abortion,
which are all topics that also showed up on that 850 book list. Like
teens are so smart and they're so curious and they really want knowledge
about the world, but sometimes they feel too like shy or hesitant to
like ask like a parent or a teacher directly.
Maia Kobabe (19:44):
And so, um, and I also know like as a teen, a couple of times I did come
across a book that felt like it wasn't quite right for me, but I was
very good at being like, I'm not ready for this book and setting it
aside. And I think that they're not counting on, yeah, just how smart
and thoughtful young readers are and that they are ready... If they're
ready for this material, like they will know. Yeah. And then, and just
the fact that you can learn so much from books that are both also about
people that are completely different from you and it can really like
open up windows of empathy.
Jean-Marie Navetta (20:12):
Yes. I have to know while I was reading yours, I was actually saying
this to one of my colleagues earlier as somebody who's who identifies
incredibly as incredibly binary, cisgender and gay, (laughs) there were
so many parts of it where I found myself saying, I, I know what that
feels. Oh my goodness. I, I have that too. And I, and it, it was such an
eyeopener to me, even as an adult, or at least that's what I'm told, to
have these moments. And again, it left me with that wonder 15, 16 year
old me wishing that she had that book. So, uh, we have about 10 minutes
left and I wanna spend time talking about what we should be doing, um
because PFLAGers are, um, nothing, if not acts, uh, action oriented.
Jean-Marie Navetta (20:49):
So Deborah, I wanna start with you. So how can everyday advocates be of
service here? Um, how can they help defend librarians, defend the
selections that are coming in in libraries? 'Cause I, I was listening to
the point that you started with, that this isn't just about banning,
but this is sometimes about intimidating librarians from bringing
certain content in. So what should people be doing, um, with libraries
and librarians?
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (21:12):
In the present moment, start showing up at board meetings, I'm dead
serious. We've, you know, we've... I think we've gotten into the habit
of kind of ignoring small, local elected boards, school boards, library
boards, and they're taking advantage of that. They're targeting those
groups. And so we need people to show up and speak up at board meetings.
More importantly, we need people to show up and vote in these
elections. We do know that they're organizing deliberately to take over
seats with an anti, um uh, excuse me, a pro censorship agenda. And we've
already had it happen in three library boards out west where
individuals who vowed to scrub the library of LGBTQ materials were
elected to the library board. And because boards are the decision
makers, they set the policy, they make the decisions, they may well have
the power to do that if someone doesn't go to court and challenge it.
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (22:07):
So get involved with local elections and pay attention to your local
press. If you don't have any, pay attention to your local media. Join
local, uh, if you've got a friends group for your local libraries, if
you've got a PTO, that's another place where you can make a real impact
in, uh, changing the rhetoric around the schools. Because these people
get attention because they're the loudest voices.
Maia Kobabe (22:29):
Yes.
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (22:29):
They need counter voices.
Jean-Marie Navetta (22:31):
Yeah.
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (22:31):
So I guess what we're saying right now is, you know, engage, you know,
engage in your, your local community and be involved with your schools
and your libraries. Um, if there's a support group, join it, um, and pay
attention to what's going on, participate in elections. Better yet,
stand for election. Stand for those seats, compete for them, offer an
alternative vision so that people know that censorship isn't the lesson
we wanna be teaching our young people today. It's really, uh, it it's
really as fundamental as that, but also, um, and, and, and pulling out a
little bit further, state legislatures. You know, and I know that it
seems like we're powerless that we've been gerrymandered to death, but
even a few voices at a hearing can help turn away censorship legislation
at this point.
Jean-Marie Navetta (23:19):
I know it would be unprofessional for me to cheer, but just know in my
head I'm cheering right now at every word that you just said. (laughs)
Get involved in your school board, this has been a strategy at my
position for years, we need to play the same game, but even better. Um,
so, um, both Mel, um, Malinda and Maia, I would love to hear from you,
um, from the perspective of content creators. So what can advocates do
to protect books like yours, um, what can parents and students do? And
maybe Malinda, we can start with you and then Maia.
Malinda Lo (23:46):
Sure. You know, I, I think that something that I am still very concerned
about is this self censorship, this quiet censorship, where the books
are just not acquired. And I really want to encourage parents to talk to
your kids, you know, ask them what they're reading at school, ask them
if they, you know, it depends on your relationship with your kid, but
ask them, you know, if they hear about anything like this going on at
their school. You know, because the biggest problem is that we don't
know what's happening.
Maia Kobabe (24:14):
Yeah.
Malinda Lo (24:14):
So if you find out about a book challenge at your school or an instance
when a book has been silently removed, you know, get on your social
media networks and tell people about it, to tell your local community,
tell people on your Facebook groups. You know, I tell me.
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (24:30):
Tell the ALA. (shouting)
Malinda Lo (24:31):
I wanna know. Tell...
Jean-Marie Navetta (24:32):
Tell the ALA.
Malinda Lo (24:36):
... Tell the ALA.
Maia Kobabe (24:36):
Yeah, there's a form on the ALA website, like right in.
Malinda Lo (24:37):
Yeah. Tell people because that's the only way we'll know. Like a lot of
times people ask me if my books have been banned and I'm just like,
"Well, I only know if it's in the news." (laughs )
Maia Kobabe (24:46):
Yeah.
Malinda Lo (24:47):
You know, because people don't necessarily come and tell the author. And
I can't speak for other authors, but if you find about me, tell me
(laughs), I wanna know. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm on Twitter, just, just tell
me. And so, you know, spread the news. I think we all have to share this
information.
Maia Kobabe (25:03):
Right.
Jean-Marie Navetta (25:04):
I think so much of this happens in darkness. I mean, people just are
not... It it's, it's not seen, and so it slides by. Maia, what about
you? What do you think?
Maia Kobabe (25:11):
Yeah, I was just gonna say about my... The first time I heard about
"Gender Queer" being banned was through the ALA's Banned Book field
report from 2020. And there must have been a couple instances in 2020
that I literally never heard about until the book report, field report
came out in September of this year. Um, I would say, yeah, um, checking
the book out from the library and so that the librarian's like, "No, all
this is in circulation and people are interested in this, and then if
there's not a copy available of either of our books or any book that you
see, that's banned that you wanna try reading." Um, every library has a
some- something on the website where you can request a purchase and you
can like request that they buy it. And I think librarians seeing those
purchase requests, like it's sort of like, uh, that is also almost like
an email or like a direct voice of them knowing like, oh, people in the
community are interested in this and they want this available and they
want to read this.
Jean-Marie Navetta (25:58):
Excellent. Excellent. Um, I, I really appreciate that, 'cause I think so
many people, um, often feel powerless. I mean, sometimes this feels
like the train is left the station and I think they're is always an
opportunity to get it back. And I think these are really tangible
suggestions. Things like requesting the book, letting people know that
there in, in fact is demand for this content...
Maia Kobabe (26:16):
Yeah.
Jean-Marie Navetta (26:17):
... Um, is, is so absolutely critical. So, um, I'm going to take my book
nerd privilege, um, moment here, um, which is asking all of you, um, to
tell us something fantastic that you have been reading lately. Um,
because I think one of the best things that we can do with our
platforms, isn't just talk about the problems, but talk about what is
going right and what we are really enjoying. Um, and so, um, I'm gonna
start again with Deborah so we can go around.
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (26:40):
Oh, huh, I have to say I've been so busy, I haven't had a lot of time
for recreational reading for the last few months. Um, but actual
highlight a book I still cherish, and that's "The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian." And it was just, uh, a glimpse into a world I
didn't know anything about and, and the experiences of, uh, the
protagonist and, and, you know, navigating the two worlds, his life on
the res and, and the life in the white high school and things like that.
Um, and I just enjoyed it. I remember vividly, uh, working on a
challenge in a small community where all the young men in the community,
all the 14 year olds were carrying the book because it was the first
time they'd ever read a book that accurately reflected their lives
living in rural poverty. And they, they were just so devoted and it was a
heartbreaking when the board voted to remove the book from the, the
library collection. Um, but that- that's one book I really cherish.
Jean-Marie Navetta (27:41):
Thank you. Um, Malinda.
Malinda Lo (27:45):
Well, I, I wanna talk about this wonderful book, "The Legend of Auntie Po" by Shing Yin Khor...
Maia Kobabe (27:49):
Yes.
Malinda Lo (27:50):
... which is a graphic memoir. It's absolutely beautiful, the art is
wonderful. And, um, the thing about this book is, so my novel "Last
Night of the Telegraph Club" is about a queer Chinese American girl in
the 1950s. There are very few books about queer Chinese American girls
in history. This is another one (laughs) and it just came out this year.
It's set in the 1800s, and the main character is in a logging camp.
It's wonderful. And it's about, um, self-made myth, and coming of age,
and exploring her identity as a queer person as well. It's a wonderful
book, highly recommend it.
Maia Kobabe (28:25):
Second that, I love that book.
Jean-Marie Navetta (28:26):
I love the fact that, that we're like this, but we didn't think these
books existed and yet here they all are. So that's right. It's so
exciting. Maia, go ahead. I'm sorry I interrupted.
Maia Kobabe (28:34):
No, that's okay. I love that book. I'm friends with the author. We did a
book event together earlier this year.
Malinda Lo (28:38):
Oh, great. (laughs)
Maia Kobabe (28:39):
Um, I wanted to shout out a book that I think has been a little under
the radar, just "Out of Salem" by Hal Schrieve, which is, um, a book
that's set in a high school in which there's like magic and sort of
supernatural elements. And there is a werewolf character and zombie
character, and they're both like queer and they become friends. And
like, there's also a lot of really rich metaphor of like of monstrosity
and queerness and the way people, you know, view other sexualities and
other bodies as monstrous, but that can be like reclaimed and people
like finding each other who have been sort of like pushed to the margins
of their societies. And I just thought it was really, really well
written. And, um, I believe it came out in early, early this year.
Jean-Marie Navetta (29:16):
Thank you. Um, thank you all. Uh, this was such an absolute treat. It
was an absolute gift that when we came up with the idea, I wasn't sure
if we'd be able to make it happen in here, all of you are having this
conversation. Um, I'm so grateful to you for your time. I'm even more
grateful for you to, for your advocacy and your creativity, and what you
are putting out into the universe and giving people who sometimes feel
like they are never gonna be seen a way to see themselves, um, and then
defending the ability that for those books to remain on shelves. So, um,
Deborah, Malinda, Maia, thank you so, so very much, and please keep up
the incredible work that you are doing.
Maia Kobabe (29:52):
Thank you for having us.
Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Esq. (29:53):
Thank you for hosting this.
—
Malinda Lo (29:54):
Yeah.
Jean-Marie Navetta (29:55):
Thank you. Well, everybody, this gets us to the end of yet another show.
Um, it's always hard to end these, um, when the conversation is that
good. We will be back next week with actually our last show of 2021. I
almost said 20, I'm so confused. Um, we will wrap up the same way we do
every single week, which is reminding you to run fast, laugh hard, and
most of all be kind, but please, please, please, if you haven't done it
yet get vaccinated, and if you have been vaccinated, go get your
boosters, um, so we can all be together again sometime soon. If you need
any help before next week's show, um, make sure you visit
pflag.org/find to locate your lo-, uh, closest chapter. My name is
Jean-Marie Navetta, and I will see you next week on Something to Talk
About Live. Bye everybody.
⏤
Source:
"Something to Talk About Live: You Can’t Read This! The Book Banning Trend," by PFLAG National, YouTube, 9 December 2021.
Join PFLAG National live this Thursday, December 9th at 4:30 PM ET/1:30 PM PT for Something to Talk About Live! This week we'll be discussing Nadra Nittle’s article in the 19th, “Librarians are resisting censorship of children’s books by LGBTQ+ and Black authors.”
We are excited to welcome Maia Kobabe, author of Gender Queer: A Memoir, Malinda Lo, author of Last Night at the Telegraph Club, and Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Director of the American Library Association’s Office for Intellectual Freedom to the conversation this week.
For more information--and to check out our discussion questions in advance--visit https://pflagnation.al/STTALive-120921.
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